Thanks so much for this. I'm catching up on this conversation as I was recently ordained in the PCA. I'm curious, as best you can tell, where does the language of "Presbyterian and Reformed System" come from? And what exactly is meant by this phrase? Often when I read or listen to people speak of subscription, this phrase isn't used, rather "The Confession", or "system of religion" found int he confession is implied. Whereas "P&R System" seems to me that it would broaden what's considered acceptable.
To your first question, I'd recommend you read Charles Hodge's "The Church and Its Polity" Chapter XIV, section 7, starting on page 317 to get the history of the subscription debate in American Presbyterianism. You will find the origin of the terms there, I believe. That said, there have been debates about subscription across the pond among Scottish Presbyterians as well.
The meaning of the P&R system is not clearly defined. Rather, it stands for the way the Reformed tradition has understood Scripture in distinction to the Lutherans, Roman Catholics, and even Anglicans. Discerning what makes this system distinct and what is essential to this system rather than merely a part of the Reformed tradition historically, is the task of theologians and the courts of the Church.
It should be noted that our BCO (19-2.f and 21-4.f, and the vows for licensure and ordination) uses the language of "our system of doctrine," which is a reference to the P&R system. You are correct that this is broader than "every doctrine" in the Westminster Standards. Some of the doctrines in the Westminister Standards are not fundamental to the system, which is why we allow for exceptions to be granted to officers.
I hope that is helpful. I have a couple of other posts that go more into all this.
Anything specifically on defining "fundamental to the system"? I know there is no list of doctrines that are fundamental, but as you've read up on this, are there trends for how that phrase is understood?
I encourage you to read the sections in Hodge that I referenced above. See especially pages 333-334.
Hodge suggests the P&R system includes: 1) The doctrines common to all Christians which are essential to the faith, 2) The doctrines common to all Protestants, and 3) The doctrines that distinguish the Reformed from the Lutherans, Arminians, and Anabaptists, particularly related to the doctrines of grace, the sacraments, covenants, election, perseverance, etc.
He says that everyone with any historical and theological knowledge knows what these doctrines are.
Super helpful!
Derek,
Thanks so much for this. I'm catching up on this conversation as I was recently ordained in the PCA. I'm curious, as best you can tell, where does the language of "Presbyterian and Reformed System" come from? And what exactly is meant by this phrase? Often when I read or listen to people speak of subscription, this phrase isn't used, rather "The Confession", or "system of religion" found int he confession is implied. Whereas "P&R System" seems to me that it would broaden what's considered acceptable.
-Stephen
Hi Stephen.
Glad you found this helpful.
To your first question, I'd recommend you read Charles Hodge's "The Church and Its Polity" Chapter XIV, section 7, starting on page 317 to get the history of the subscription debate in American Presbyterianism. You will find the origin of the terms there, I believe. That said, there have been debates about subscription across the pond among Scottish Presbyterians as well.
https://pcahistory.org/digital/library/Hodge_1879_Church_Polity.pdf
The meaning of the P&R system is not clearly defined. Rather, it stands for the way the Reformed tradition has understood Scripture in distinction to the Lutherans, Roman Catholics, and even Anglicans. Discerning what makes this system distinct and what is essential to this system rather than merely a part of the Reformed tradition historically, is the task of theologians and the courts of the Church.
It should be noted that our BCO (19-2.f and 21-4.f, and the vows for licensure and ordination) uses the language of "our system of doctrine," which is a reference to the P&R system. You are correct that this is broader than "every doctrine" in the Westminster Standards. Some of the doctrines in the Westminister Standards are not fundamental to the system, which is why we allow for exceptions to be granted to officers.
I hope that is helpful. I have a couple of other posts that go more into all this.
Peace,
Derek
Anything specifically on defining "fundamental to the system"? I know there is no list of doctrines that are fundamental, but as you've read up on this, are there trends for how that phrase is understood?
I encourage you to read the sections in Hodge that I referenced above. See especially pages 333-334.
Hodge suggests the P&R system includes: 1) The doctrines common to all Christians which are essential to the faith, 2) The doctrines common to all Protestants, and 3) The doctrines that distinguish the Reformed from the Lutherans, Arminians, and Anabaptists, particularly related to the doctrines of grace, the sacraments, covenants, election, perseverance, etc.
He says that everyone with any historical and theological knowledge knows what these doctrines are.
Found that section later last night and found it to be really helpful in charting how it's been understood.